VettaFi: So there's not a really good answer as to why they would do that? I think we need to go back and try to figure out what market dynamics were there that caused that to happen. Ultra-short and short have sold off, and companies added long-duration or long-maturity ETFs. But at least in terms of ETF usage, we've seen companies sold out of the shorter end of the curves in terms of average maturity. You would normally think that you'd want to shorten duration in a rising inflation environment. Ramachandran: That was one of the surprising things that came out of the study that we're trying to analyze further. VettaFi: And that's an alignment to the Fed hiking aggressively last year and the duration risk associated with that? There was a rotation out of fixed income and into equities. Without that asset allocation decision, we saw about $600 million come out. VettaFi: Without the decision of those two companies to leave public equities, what were the trends for ETF adoption? So at the end of the day, $11 billion did come out of insurance. That's an asset allocation decision, not an ETF decision. So they sold all public equities and, consequently, all public equity ETFs. The bulk of that $4 billion in outflows was a decision by two mega companies to get out of public equities. But then we also had $4 billion of that in outflows. Raghu Ramachandran, S&P Dow Jones: Yes, $11 billion or so in AUM from 2021 to 2022, and the bulk of that was due to market valuations. However, what made that drop steeper than in 2008 or 2020, when market conditions were also difficult? It seems like a lot of that was explained by 2022's bear market. Dan Mika, VettaFi: The headline of this year's report suggests almost a quarter of the ETF assets held by the insurance industry were sold off in 2022.
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